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ClubCJ's Future and Potential

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Lancer1993
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby Lancer1993 » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:13 pm

With AusLancer I'm not sure if we need another club for all Lancers.
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby sarusa » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:59 am

bumblebee wrote:If we try and cover all versions of lancer isnt there another forum that does most if not all of that already?


Its called AusLancer and does include a CJ/CF column as well. :D

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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby benyamin » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:20 am

DISCLAIMER: IANAL NOR IS THIS LEGAL ADVICE

Wow...! What a thread this one is. Several issues have been identified and some workable solutions offered. It would be great if these could prosper and bear fruit. Troy (aspir3), you are dead right: the club needs better management and a full committee to do so. This is in no way a reflection on you Troy, or Justin for that matter. It's simply too much for two people, or even three if we include Kav. The other challenge is having a President that can effectively chair the meetings of a committee. It is a very particular skill set that takes experience and wisdom.

So why can't this be achieved? Well I think the answer lies in the fact that some assumptions have been made about the club's structure that aren't factual, and IMO this is the root cause as to why the club appears to be failing. Troy, on this topic you almost have it right, but you have either been misled or poorly informed. Both bumblebee and Skrallex are spot-on. I would also suggest that the "ex-prez" (notably not Justin) took full advantage of this lack of structure.

Now, I will try to explain this at length below, but firstly you might very well be tempted to say: What does this noob know? How long has he been around? Well, let me start by saying that I am the founder of an active and unincorporated association that acts as a think-tank. I've been on several Committee's of Management of Incorporated Associations and both held executive roles in and reported to the boards of both private and public companies - some of which I still do. I've had experience with fabrication and manufacturing as well as electrical, electronic, computer and RF engineering. I'm old enough to be married and have six kids and several thousand white hairs.

So when I say unincorporated associations are no good for large member bases (and here I mean no more than what is necessary to form the association, i.e. 5 people) - I do know what I'm talking about. I founded one and run it like a dictatorship. I do this because I can and my members don't care. My wife and I are the only officers, but these are meaningless positions. An unincorporated association can have any rules (i.e. a Constitution) it wants and none of them are legally enforceable. Nor can the association be recognised as a legal entity (a fictional person) with rights and responsibilities. That's why Justin had to register the domain under his name. Yet, the real kicker is that there is NO limitation on liability and the Committee of Management (and in some instances, all of it's members) can be held personally liable for damages and losses. That's why no one who knows what they are doing wants to be on the Committee.

So, the only solution to this is to incorporate. Then people will know we are serious and will have some protections and limitations on their personal liability. The club would also become a legal entity and enjoy similar protections. As it would then be a fictional person it would be able to trade, buy property and the like under it's own name. A trust account could be opened in the name of this entity with multiple signatories and other business best practice protections against fraud could then be implemented. It would also require annual auditing of it's books. All things that competent members of a Committee of Management would want I would think. As for the club members, whilst membership could no longer effectively be anonymous (an Incorporated Association must maintain a register of accurate member information), the benefits would be significant.

So as it stands the following is true:

  1. The club was formed as an Unincorporated Association in the jurisdiction of the State of Queensland (4165)
  2. The club is presently an Unincorporated Association in the jurisdiction of the State of New South Wales (2009)
  3. The club is an entity without personhood, named: "The CJ Lancer Club of Australia"
  4. The club has a historical Trading Name of "ClubCJ.net" but is unable to legally trade
  5. The club has the ABN 37 822 841 861 but has never registered for GST (it cannot trade anyway)
  6. The ABR was last updated December 9, 2011. Much has happened since, yes...?
  7. The club is not owned by the members or necessarily operated for the members
  8. The club is operated by whomever controls the assets as an individual (Troy or Justin, but not both)
  9. The "Constitution" link is a 404. There's a copy of one on the Wayback Machine from 2011...
  10. The "Constitution" is unnecessary, meaningless and unenforceable as the club is Unincorporated

There are some issues with incorporating too, notably because it is a national club, but nothing that couldn't be overcome. In any case, I hope the above is enough to kick off some discussion about such a prospect. :idea:

Cheers,
Ben
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby GeorgeM23 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:00 pm

I am fairly new to this forum, only joined roughly 4 weeks ago, but I thought id throw my opinion on the topic, merchandise would be a great idea, as an example look at the ClubFG page, you see heaps of stickers on cars and it becomes very noticeable, so I’d love to rep some ClubCJ merchandise

Secondly the idea of a Instagram/Facebook is probably the right way to go to find new members, especially Instagram, with the use of hashtags more people can see the posts that get made and can ultimately come back the forum.

Just a few points I thought I’d make ( I know I’m a little late but hey ahah)

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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby benyamin » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:36 pm

More great ideas, George. Selling merch would be a great fundraiser and bring awareness like you mentioned.

I think a home page front to the club with links to the forums, chat, a store, social media sites, blogs, knowledge tree, etc. would be the way to go. Then you could just link in to these pages via social media apps, etc. We could even write our own app too.

I'd like to see some of the integration others have hinted at. I know this is possible from my IT background. Two-way postings between the forums and club social media accounts - even if they're just tweets or short Facebook posts with links to the forum (or vice versa). It would also be possible for members to repost to the forums when using the right hashtag from their own personal social media accounts. This way you could take a photo with Instagram or Snapchat and sync it to your gallery (just one example). All that cool stuff. And it would enable all generations and persuasions to participate more and contribute more content.

All of this requires work, whether voluntary or paid, and whilst I'd love to help with these ideas (and I'm more than capable), I'm just not comfortable getting involved more until the club's structure provides better protections and limitations on liability.

Does anyone know whatever happened to this topic.

C'Mon peeps, surely there must be some opinions on this...? Obviously there was in the past...
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby sarusa » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:54 am

Keep Facebook, Instagram and social media out, right out. As far as possible!
There are people like me with limited ability to comprehend or have a wish to have anything to do with
what we see as invasive media.

Lets keep this a car club, not a media club!

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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby ReeceCozaa » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:04 am

Tbh social media would bring in much more members to the club, it’s a good idea, just linking if will work, it doesn’t have to be solely based on the club, but we do need something that could boost the viewing of this website, plus merch would be awesome, even just stickers!
We are all in it for the fun!

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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby benyamin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 pm

sarusa wrote:Keep Facebook, Instagram and social media out, right out. As far as possible!
There are people like me with limited ability to comprehend or have a wish to have anything to do with
what we see as invasive media.

Lets keep this a car club, not a media club!

I think if we integrate social media with the forum platform then there shouldn't be an issue right? This would mean that the content added on social media apps would just be replicated in the forums for those folks that don't want or care to use CIA_book, Instaspy, Twitheads, Catchchat, etc. ;) The content would be there to view and make comment on, but you wouldn't necessarily need to be a user of social media apps to participate.

This really is the challenge in any club with an online presence: finding members with skills in not only leadership, book-keeping / accounting and business administration (for the Committee) but also IT skill sets, whether it is generic systems administration or vendor specific forum moderation, social media integration, e-commerce integration, etc. When your members don't have these skills (and I'm not suggesting that we don't), fundraising can provide a means to outsource the work. In this way, the club can continue to function when there aren't enough skills or people to bear the load. :idea:
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby ReeceCozaa » Fri Feb 23, 2018 2:50 pm

I like this, I would love to see the club booming, I know here in Sydney the lancer scene is still booming, go to Blacktown and you can literally play spot the lancer and easily count them on both hands and feet!
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby aspir3 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:12 pm

There are so many great ideas. I have been in this club for almost 10 years. In that time I have seen it grow and then shrink. We have also had issues of finances going missing and admin stealing from members. I now control the finances and we have over $8k
In short the club has never been the same since Facebook. Members are now younger and staying around shorter.

At this time we have no income. In the past we had premium membership and sponsors. We had many members who would help organise group buys, stickers and club merchandise.
In the last few years we held election to find members that were voted in leaving or not being active.
I would love to run this club properly but we don't have enough interest. I also would not fill comfortable handing over IT side of things to someone I don't know who only just joined the club even though you sound very knowledgeable and trustworthy Ben.

At this stage i would love to promote some active members to moderators and start getting a committee together to discuss the future.
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Re: ClubCJ's Future and Potential

Postby benyamin » Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:51 pm

Thanks for chiming in again, Troy. I thought it might be of benefit to make a couple of further comments. I hope you don't mind.
aspir3 wrote:There are so many great ideas. I have been in this club for almost 10 years. In that time I have seen it grow and then shrink. We have also had issues of finances going missing and admin stealing from members. I now control the finances and we have over $8k. In short the club has never been the same since Facebook. Members are now younger and staying around shorter.
Is the link causal or coincidental, e.g. is it because of age or Facebook that members aren't staying around as long? I would suggest that it is coincidental, and that the real problem is reputation. This loss of reputation - mostly caused by missing monies (which you mention) - leads to an erosion of membership, which leads to further losses of reputation. It becomes a bit of a rolling snowball. True, forums - and bulletin boards before them - are pretty old tech, but that's highly unlikely to be the real problem. Nor is mobile readability, it's actually not too bad. As previously explained, I believe that the root cause is likely the lack of incorporation.

Incorporating the club would mean that controls would need to be in place to protect the finances and the reaction to any fraudulent behaviour would need to be handled according to the rule of law. This would help to restore confidence and eventually reputation. Further to this, using an e-commerce store front managed by the club instead of an independent yet affiliated chief buyer (which it always has been to date as far as I can tell) would further restore confidence and eventually reputation.

I think these sorts of investments would bring back many necro-members (presuming they still own lancers).
aspir3 wrote:I would love to run this club properly but we don't have enough interest. I also would not fill comfortable handing over IT side of things to someone I don't know who only just joined the club even though you sound very knowledgeable and trustworthy Ben.
Firstly, I just wanted to check on your meaning of "run the club properly". Did you mean to incorporate it? Or was it more general, meaning you don't have enough assistance?

I don't think you should hand over the IT side of things to anyone, Troy. Except perhaps under direction from the Committee of Management of an Incorporated Association, formed to represent the club, or it's Executive. If you presently have control of the system access, monies, the domain registration and the trading name / ABN registration, then YOU are ClubCJ. Further to this, because the club is unincorporated, there aren't really any members, only registered users of a forum. The monies may imply a contractual agreement between the payee and the president of the club, the executive, or the committee at the time of the transaction, but if that wasn't you, then you have received a sizeable donation.

Troy, even if a new Committee was formed in the present structure, i.e. as an unincorporated association, you would be ill advised to relinquish control of any club assets. Remember, if you share control in the current structure, you share liability and could be held liable for losses and damages that might occur as a result of the conduct of people you have shared that control with.
aspir3 wrote:At this stage i would love to promote some active members to moderators and start getting a committee together to discuss the future.
I'd love to help out where I can, but with the current structure, I'm only comfortable in participating in a conversation regarding incorporation of some form. If you want to call that a committee, a sub-committee, a working-group, an advisory group, a topic of a particular forum - whatever - that's fine with me as long as it isn't a Committee of Management of this Unincorporated Association...!

I think it's probably fair to say that if the club was to be incorporated, you'd have more people willing to help you out.
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